Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Mark comments ...

No doubt as a feature of our continuing irrelevance and his lack of interest in our blog. And at a time when I was just about to post a prayer request for his current woes. As Victor and I have repeatedly stated here, as much as we may disagree with Mark we have no desire to see him suffer, either personally or financially. I am aware that there are other people here who may have different opinions on that and I would strongly suggest that such individuals keep it to themselves.

In any case, Mark writes:
No. Mark hasn't [embraced Ron Paul]. But I'm sure it must be a consolation to tell yourself he has.

Short of a public declaration of fealty, it sure seems to this observer as though Mark has. Given his own argument that Victor and I shill for the GOP, I hope he isn't too terribly surprised when what's good for the goose is good for the gander. By the same standards that Mark uses to illustrate that Victor and I desire the abuse of prisoners and war crimes (to say nothing of the election of Rudy Giuliani!), I don't think that it is at all hard to document the same for him with regard to Ron Paul. The complete 180 on libertarianism where before it was a selfish ideology for people without children, knee-jerk defense of the man despite the more egregious things that he's said (including opposition to the war in Afghanistan), the anger at the electorate that he isn't gaining in the polls (except when he is - see the following), and then the embrace of conspiracism whenever any serious criticism of the man gains traction all seem to qualify in this regard.
The funny thing is, Rod Dreher has a lot more unabashed enthusiasm for both Ron Paul and Daniel Larison than my ocassional mention of them demonstrates. Similarly, his words about the Bushies and their conduct of the war have been none too kind for some months now. But since Rod is a friend of Victor's this does not come up here. Oh sure, diane and pauli like to obsess about Rod, but the managers of this site would prefer to keep the focus on Shea-hating. So they simply ignore it in favor of expanding my various chance comments into an opportunity for dimestore psychoanalysis. You never see loooooong ranting pieces about how Rod is cracking up and a menace to the Republic who can safely be ignored (except when you are obsessing over him).

A couple of points here. First of all, Rod is now Eastern Orthodox rather than Catholic, which to put it crudely means that while I continue to pray for his return to the Church, he can say whatever he likes without me worrying about a scandal to the faithful. He has also never tried to pass off his nuttier political or social views as being in synch with the Catholic Church (indeed, his conversion to Orthodoxy would seem to preclude such things) or questioned the fidelity to the Church of those with whom he disagrees. Rod's main shtick, near as I can determine, is crunchy conservatism, which while I disagree strenuously with it as an ideology am not too worried about because it has been repeatedly critiqued by every respectable non-paleocon conservative media outlet that has addressed it. I'm not too worried about the coming crunchy conservative revolution because it is Monty Python's dead parrot sketch as a political ideology. Rod has also been willing to engage those who disagree with him in substantive debates, such as those that occurred on NRO before he decided that he was so much smarter than Jonah Goldberg.

Were Mark's political or theological ideas subjected to this same degree of serious criticism, I probably wouldn't be blogging here. Instead, they have grown a lot shriller and intolerant over time and near as I can determine few within the professional apologetics community have been willing to point out that some of the stuff that he writes, particularly whenever he gets going about neocons or the war, is literally Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and drawn from less than reputable sources. If Mark wants to embrace fringe political views, that's between himself and his critical mindset, but I have a big problem with them being touted from the bully pulpit of the more widely-read Catholic blogs. And this goes way beyond whatever he thinks about interrogation, despite his attempts to pigeonhole Victor and myself into that category because we don't accept his fundamentalist reading of Gaudium et Spes. I have compared this to the issue of Sungenis before he lost his following and I think that it's a perfectly valid one.
Me: I don't mind Rod's remarks on politics much, but I do think the hypocrisy of Victor and his various partners-in-dialogue here is pretty funny. The personal really is the political, ain't it? Why not just rename the place "We Hate Mark Shea and we Can't Stand Zippy Either" and be done with it?

As a practical matter, neither Victor nor myself write that much about Zippy. No doubt that's because (as in the case of Rod) we're secretly in league with him and don't want to expose the connection lest it harm the broader conspiracy. From my point of view, his level of personal arrogance and frequent declarations of his own correctness as a way of ending an argument tend to preclude him developing a broad following. To the extent that he is important, it is largely because Mark tends to outsource most of the actual arguing for some of his claims to him. That said, I don't hate Mark Shea because I don't really know the man. At the end of the day, he is ultimately a stranger who makes crazy comments online with a habit of hurling ad hominems at my character. I could care less for what he thinks about me, but as long as he continues to write crazy stuff I remain concerned for my fellow Catholics. Thankfully, his continued descent into the magical land of Ron Paul has made that less and less of an issue as he becomes more and more identified with the lunatic fringe.

49 comments:

Anonymous said...

Oh sure, diane and pauli like to obsess about Rod, but the managers of this site would prefer to keep the focus on Shea-hating.

Well, if it's any consolation, Mark, I like you about 100,000 times better than I like Rod. ;)

I also think Rod has completely lost it---so completely that I do not bother with him anymore. Which hardly qualifies as "obsession," but, then, accuracy and precision of expression aren't your strong points these days.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify. Believe it or not, I do not dislike you. I still think you are the most lucid, accessible apologetical writer out there. I am appalled by the way you treat people who disagree with you nowadays. But I have seen you apologize for this. I have never seen Rod Dreher apologize for anything. Not to those he has actuaslly offended, that is. ;)

Diane, dodging the snarky comeback

Anonymous said...

My issue with his site is its boredom. For some time its been nothing but the cobbling of links.

Mark was one of the first of the Catholic bloggers. He hasn't even figured out how to work upon a visually interesting format.

Sorry for his troubles. Maybe he ought to get an honest-to-goodness job at a school or a publishing company - someplace where his, honestly good talents can be put to rewarding ($) use.

Anonymous said...

"Rod has also been willing to engage those who disagree with him in substantive debates"

err, beg to differ on that point.

Anonymous said...

err, beg to differ on that point.

Yeah, moi aussi. I nearly swallowed my back teeth when I read that line. LOL!!!!

Diane the Non-Theocrat

Peter T Chattaway said...

Forgive a completely off-topic query ... but what has happened to Victor's movie blog!? It seems to have vanished from the face of the earth! I hope it's just a temporary glitch ...

Victor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Victor said...

Peter:

Look here. I explain in this post.

I was planning on letting people who link to me know, but just ... well, hadn't gotten around to it in the two days since I decided I had to move.

Anonymous said...

Hey! Victor's finally managed to steal a few minutes of Internet access during his Zipp Huang Shang-di-commanded exile to Buranda. Hip, hip, hooray!

Anonymous said...

xanax online xanax side effects hair - side effects of generic xanax

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol 100 mg injetavel - signs of tramadol overdose

Anonymous said...

xanax without a perscription xanax xr 1mg high - xanax 2mg bars green

Anonymous said...

generic xanax 1mg lorazepam vs 1mg xanax - buy xanax forum

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol hcl time release - buy generic tramadol online

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol vs hydrocodone high - buy tramadol online in usa

Anonymous said...

Hello. And Bye. Thank you very much.

Anonymous said...

Hello. And Bye. Thank you very much.

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online buy tramadol from trusted pharmacy - tramadol extended release cost

Anonymous said...

generic xanax xanax bars for anxiety - buspar and xanax for anxiety

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol for dogs tramadol for dogs pain - tramadol high side effects

Anonymous said...

buy cheap xanax xanax and alcohol addiction - beat xanax drug test

Anonymous said...

generic xanax what is xanax dosage for anxiety - xanax 0.5

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol for dogs after neutering - tramadol dosage recreational

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online online pharmacy review tramadol - tramadol controlled substance

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol online no prescription usa - tramadol withdrawal ringing ears

Anonymous said...

tramadol online pharmacy tramadol for dogs usa - buy tramadol online from usa

Anonymous said...

xanax drug xanax side effects on pregnancy - legal to order xanax online

Anonymous said...

cialis online cialis 2.5 - cialis refractory period

Anonymous said...

http://landvoicelearning.com/#38471 buy tramadol florida - tramadol schedule

Anonymous said...

learn how to buy tramdadol tramadol withdrawal 3 days - what's maximum dosage tramadol

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol buying tramadol with mastercard - tramadol withdrawal 2 weeks

Anonymous said...

http://buytramadolonlinecool.com/#51726 tramadol high yahoo answers - tramadol dosage buzz

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol tramadol 717 - cheap 100mg tramadol

Anonymous said...

can you buy tramadol online legally tramadol dosage usa - tramadol ultram eq 50 mg

Anonymous said...

alprazolam online xanax drug review - order xanax from pakistan

Anonymous said...

Hermes Outlet 19741 Cheap Burberry Bags 668910 Chanel Outlet 460389 http://cheaplouboutinshoes.cabanova.com/

Anonymous said...

Chanel Outlet 36428 Louis Vuitton Bags 281611 Cheap Gucci Bags 981293 http://cheapburberrybagsoutlet.cabanova.com/

Anonymous said...

Hermes Bags on sale 372150 Louis Vuitton Outlet 697950 Cheap Chanel Handbags 47808 http://pinterest.com/louboutioutlet/

Anonymous said...

Gucci Handbags online 596843 Gucci Bags online 33398 Hermes Outlet 314893 http://chanelhandbagsonsale.cabanova.com/

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol ultram tramadol for high blood pressure - tramadol 50mg pain killer

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol cod online tramadol 50 mg side effects - tramadol 50 mg capsules

Anonymous said...

Our site provides agile and easy casinos Bid to fit your down payment. [url=http://www.tasty-onlinecasino.co.uk/]casinos online[/url] online casino Males Get been associated with gambling will also help clear up any rules that they may be uncertain of. http://www.onlinecasinohome.co.uk/

Anonymous said...

These loans are the ideal option for people people are used payday loans at rates that are low [url=http://www.quickshorttermcarinsurance.co.uk/]temporary car insurance[/url] temporary car insurance Through this choice, you can get bigger to complete their interest rate loans that do not call for a credit check http://www.quickshorttermcarinsurance.co.uk/

Anonymous said...

Cigarettes de fumée verte sont vraiment «verte» pas une telle publicité qui dit fumer peut tuer votre compagnon non-fumeur ou le bébé dans votre bras. [url=http://www.cigaretteelectroniquesuperieur.fr]cigarettes electroniques[/url] cigarette electronique Avertissement: Ce Hub est pour des buts éducatifs seulement utilisateur doit prendre ce qui est connu comme une bouffée d'apprêt pour chauffer l'atomiseur. http://www.cigaretteelectroniqueco.co.uk

Anonymous said...

Highly descriptive blog, I enjoyed that bit. Will there be a part 2?


Also visit my web site League Of Legends Hack

Anonymous said...

They're interested in learning about another loans and also credits for you to may have london business angels During the August 15, The year of 2010, argument with regards to the cloture movement, Us senate Republicans continued to be able to criticize the price

Anonymous said...

I’m not that much of a online reader to be honest but your sites really nice,
keep it up! I'll go ahead and bookmark your website to come back in the future. Cheers

My page ... the interlace (www.youtube.Com)

Anonymous said...

dependable Astrological compatibility would involve comparing both partners' charts with each to thrill so many spectators, we cannot help but want to savor the minute and accomplishments of that Athlete. [url=http://sbitara.upsi.edu.my/smasr/]More Help[/url] Read More Here These policies cover your expenses for your travel plans if they are canceled Broward County home plate gross revenue have increased by 15%. http://globalhomeconsulting.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=434245

Anonymous said...

Hi there! I'm at work surfing around your blog from my new apple iphone! Just wanted to say I love reading through your blog and look forward to all your posts! Keep up the great work!

Look into my web page ... 7 Zip download

Anonymous said...

Very good info. Lucky me I came across your blog
by accident (stumbleupon). I've book marked it for later!

My site ... World Of Tanks Hack